Never has my icon been more appropriate.


- Often, we underestimate how social groups control us. If other people say something is alright, most of the time, we will accept that it is the right thing to do.

- Even the good guys (such as they are) use interrogation and torture at times. They may find themselves threatening anothers loved ones or inflicting some fairly nasty injuries.

- Most people don't start off as the type of person who can torture another. It is a slow process and while some people are more predisposed to it, it is something most people are capable of. Often, people who are otherwise mentally healthy can administer horrible things if they are told to be an authority. It doesn't have to be an authority they know, as long as it is an authority they know of (like the person telling them is a doctor or an officer of the law) and 2/3 of people will then respond without hesitation.

- You're not likely, even in an organisation like the Death Eaters, to see 'Torturers Wanted - apply within'. Most charismatic leaders such as Voldemort have learned to put a spin on things. While they may not want to recruit a torturer, they might recruit a "Communications Specialist". This would involve something upholding family values, learning as part of a team and it's on the job experience so you don't really need a previous education. That doesn't sound half as threatening, but this is how recruitment was often done by terrorist cells in the 80's and I believe it's still relevent today.

- Recruitment
All cells target the young as they have shifting morals and are ideologically vulnerable. They look for those who can fit into a profile: those who feel they don't belong, those with something to prove, those with no outlet, those with passion that can be exploited and those who want to give their all for the ideologies. Of course, it helps if they believe in the cause or if they have an ability to offer it but every team needs its canon fodder.

- Belief
Believing you are doing the right thing often stems from those around you believing it or those you respect doing it. If you are told by authority something is right, you are likely to believe it. The more you believe it, the more you are willing to bend your morals for it. You can influence a persons morals with more ease when you catch them young. Raising loyal members to the cause is important to any organisation because it secures its future.


lipsofpoison I wondered if perhaps Dick is the most stable for that very reason
uneasylies : I think so. But even he isn't completely stable, just more so than the others.
lipsofpoison Very true. I'm also wondering if it's why Tim has a bit of a flip out about Jason/Damian. Not just because of jealousy, but Bruce reflects his Robins and becomes more violent with them and it's something he's been afraid to see in himself but is confronting now in Red Robin
uneasylies : Yeah, I can really see that.
uneasylies : It's the violence he's rebelling against. Sort of.
lipsofpoison He became Robin to stop Bruce from being so violent so when Jason attempts to make Bruce more violent and Dick takes a Robin that may make him reflect more violently, you can understand the balking fear.
uneasylies : Oh yeah
uneasylies : He didn't get into it for the violence, but he's being forced to deal with it anyway, and in forms he was trying to stop.
lipsofpoison So he can't do it as Tim Drake or as Robin so he needs a new identity that can be violent so he can cope by compartmentalising
uneasylies : Yeah. It's not healthy
lipsofpoison It's really not.
uneasylies : Not one bit
uneasylies : It explains a lot about all of them though
lipsofpoison It does. It's actually a little weird.
lipsofpoison You have Dick who had good parents but tragedy has happened to him, same way that Bruce did. So now Dick can function as a Batman.
uneasylies : Well, yeah. He's sorta... Terry like in that regard.
uneasylies : In the idea that the plan was to kill Terry's parents in the same way as Bruce's to ensure another Batman.
lipsofpoison You have Jason who had a very higgledy piggedy childhood with no structure and now as an adult he has no stability. He also wanted to get into a lot of fights and was likely to do damage himself and now older, he doesn't see what's wrong with him doing it even though he can see what's wrong with others doing it. It could be that Bruce vs. his parents change that has caused a weird imbalance there.
lipsofpoison Exactly!
uneasylies : Yeah!
lipsofpoison Tim had never experience violence but he did witness it a lot, so as he got older, he has always been the type to be on the outside looking in. Now he has trouble being in the moment and confronting something as emotional because he's still in that "outside looking in" frame of mind and now he's getting in deeper, so he's rationalising yet again and trying to split it up so he's never actually the one involved. He's just looking in.
uneasylies : I think he uses that to shift blame, emotionally. In the same way serial killers will tell the police to 'save her' so that it's their fault when they don't, not his fault for killing her.
uneasylies : Not that he's about to start killing people, but he seems to have that same mentality. 'I'm here to do this, and if that happens it's not my fault.'
lipsofpoison I think it works the other way at the moment.
lipsofpoison "If this person dies and I didn't save them, it's my fault"
lipsofpoison but it could so easily flip
uneasylies : Although this is his Red Robin way of thinking, not his Robin way of thinking.
lipsofpoison His Red Robin way of thinking is dangerously close to that territory and it's a very Jason mental state, because it's more like a soldier than a vigilante.
uneasylies : Being very narrow minded about finding Bruce, so goign through the first few issues not actively caring that he might be helping an enemy. As long as he reaches his own goal.
uneasylies : It's only changed in the last issue with 'I WILL BRING THEM DOWN!!!!! :D'
lipsofpoison Exactly. He's still on that "not involved" thing and the "obsessive" thing.
lipsofpoison You could argue that he's doing that as a rationalisation for using their resources
uneasylies : Yeah, I think it is.
[lipsofpoison Steph has another one of contrasts. She's had no stability so she's jumped from one thing to another her whole life before now she's decided "Who am I? I'm Batgirl." because she's taking the identity for herself and being her own person so she doesn't have to keep asking permission or disobeying rules. She's just who she is.
lipsofpoison I think that's why I'm really enjoying this and why I whooped with Babs when she was like "Yeah, that's a Batgirl"
uneasylies : Yeah. And i think she's also someone who isolates herself, even though she was always done in contrast to Tim who's worse.
uneasylies : She talks to people, and is friendly, but she hasn't had a decent connection to anyone since Tim.
lipsofpoison And now she has to rely on someone and someone has to rely on her, but she still has her independence.
lipsofpoison It's all about trust there